Today I nearly got escorted out of Nero....

[Gadders]

Well not exactly.... but i really was ready to let rip some harsh words.

In a break between 2 musical performances in Derby, i decided to look for a bite to eat. However first, the guy i was with, insisted on getting a coffee at Nero (despite my warnings ). I was scanning the menu board - damage limition if you will - what will be the least disgusting item on this menu. Well, thats espresso/ristretto ruled out for a start. Moving on to cappucino... hmm neeh, they always overstretch and overheat milk.

Eventually, whilst my partner in crime was choosing a piece of cheesecake, i decided on a 'regular latte-with-a-shot-of-vanilla-syrup-despite-the-ridiculous-40p-charge-for-it"... after all, the 'barista'... and i use that term verrrry loosly only has to froth a miniscule amount of milk badly, rather than 1/3 of the cup with a cappa. "Why the syrup?" you askyourself... well, to overpower the rank 'espresso' obviously.

So we get round to the 'barista' taking the orders, and beginning to start making the drinks. And that's when it happened.... that's when my heart skipped a beat....

The barista not only didn't distribute the grinds AT ALL.... SHE DID NOT EVEN TAMP THE COFFEE!!!!!! Can you believe that!? She just wacked the doser handle twice and rammed the PF straight into the Faema! Now tell me this... how can the "best espresso this side of milan" (as they proudly boast on the back of their t-shirts) be produced, WITHOUT ANY TAMPING!?????? I felt like speaking up, but knew from the lack of enthusiasm on the woman's face, that she didn't give 2 hoots about what she was getting paid tupence and hour for...

Then, it came to MY shot. Maybe she was reading my mind, because she actually gestured the basket towards the cruddy plastic "tamper" on the mazzer - although i doubt if any particle of that plastic came into contact with any coffee ground, during the split second they encountered each other...

I would be surprised if any coffee ground in that scutty nero had ever been manhandled and compacted with anything near 30lbs of pressure.

I am enraged.

This disgusts me.

I vow never to enter Caffe Nero ever again.

Phil.

[bruceb]

Just to bring relativity into this: In most places in Milano you won't find a tamper at all and the coffee is very good. Secondly, how did your coffee taste? How long did the shot run?

Tamping (especially firmly) is controversial. It was invented by the Seattle/Portland "school" and was designed to eliminate a variable so that poorly trained or inexperienced baristas would be able to repeatedly pull a reasonable shot and not have to contantly be readjusting the grinder.

Tamping lightly can certainly be justified. It distributes the grounds and polishes the surface. Much experimentation with grinding and tamping has convinced me that this has much more of a theatrical and theoretical advantage than it does in improving the taste.

If your coffee at Caffe Nero tasted bad, so be it. The bad taste was probably not the result of not tamping heavily, however.

[mhuk]

I would think freshness/ date roasted of beans will have the greatest impact?

[Gadders]

Well, in every other nero i have been to... they have actually tried to tamp the coffee - so i would be surprised if no tamping was company practice.

Besides, we all slave over distribution techniques and leveling - even the dynamics of the bottom of a tamper. I can understand that grinding fine enough can eliminate tamping - but i doubt the doser on a mazzer perfectly distributes the grinds!

Lastly, we're not talking milan here... we're talking a Derby high street, and we're not talking an enthusiastic italian barista here... more like an uninterested employee who probably thinks operating the till is more important than operating the faema.

[bruceb]

You still haven't told us how the coffee tasted.

[Gadders]

It was a latte with vanilla syrup in... thus, it tasted of vanilla...

[AlanP]

I've been meaning to try this for some time now,so I just did.

Ground a bit finer than usual,overfilled the basket,levelled with a knife,lock and load.
Strangely the coffee took a few seconds longer to appear,maybe I ground too fine.
The crema looked better than normal,much redder,though it dispersed a bit quicker.
The shot tasted slightly smoother than a tamped one I'd had earlier.
Biggest difference,made a damn fine mess of the shower screen and more clean up needed.
Think I'll go back to tamping
Alan

[Gadders]

Congrats (part from the mess).

However, you still overfilled and distributed with a knife... this woman in nero wacked the doser twice and then it was straight in - grinder to machine - not a hint of levelling or distribution.

[AlanP]

The foreplay is half the fun for me....
Alan

[Bassclef]

Methinks that on my next trip to Italy I will start to survey the baristas. I am going to Milan in October and will, in the interests of Science and the Adoration of my Peers, have many, many coffees in as many places as I can. My initial thoughts are to:

A) Check for taste (I am not brilliant at this but will do my level (pun not intended!) best
B) Check for tamping
C) Check equipment use

Is there anything else anyone would like me to check? And why do there appear to be no Italians here anyway?

Marc

[Syber]

I can see it clearly now:

An invasion of TMCers into Milan.
watching the process meticulously
and then, telling them what to do..

As far as I know Italians, they won't listen to the rest of europe..

[Bassclef]

Ok - you have me agreeing with you completely! I promise I won't actually say anything so will PROBABLY not get thrown out of Milano cafe's with white-aproned mediterranean bar owner in hot pursuit!

Marc

[Sarion]

Hi guys,

I believe it is inevitable that you will get better espresso if you tamp. The reason for this is basically fluid dynamics. The water will find the path of least resistance. In parts with less resistance, it will flow through faster.

The better the coffee in the filter in distributed (and the more evenly ground the coffee is) the more the water will pass through all the coffee equally fast. If the coffee is unevenly distributed, more water will pass through small canals resulting in:

1) exhausting the coffee around the canals, as if you would when letting the espresso run for longer, giving blond or white 'coffee' (see those in your espresso?) and
2) the more densely packed coffee will remain unused.

Distibution should be done horizontaly (equal distribution over the surface of the filter) and vertically (this is done by tamping hard) to obtain the best extraction!

I think this is basically what Schomer says, but in my own words.

Go ahead and tell those baristas to tamp!

Regards,

Berend

[bruceb]

Hi guys,

I believe it is inevitable that you will get better espresso if you tamp.

Believe: Maybe we need to start a new group or section called "Coffee Religion."

It makes sense to me to always be sceptical of dogma. Schomer had a very good reason to insist on heavy tamping and it had nothing to do with hydrodynamics, but rather with the all-to human (perhaps especially Western US) tendency to get sloppy.

If coffee is ground perfectly it will result in an extraction time that yields perfect results without tamping. If you use that same grind and tamp at 30lbs you invariably choke the machine or wind up with a 60 sec extraction.

If you insist on tamping at 30 lbs you are forced to grind coarser. This is not an advantage. The only advantage is that if you do it the same way you will probably get repeatable results, of extreme importance in a commercial setting, but perhaps not the way to get the best cup.

The question is not "No Tamp" vs, "Tamp," but tamp lightly to level the grounds and polish and slightly compact the surface. That makes it possible to grind optimally and get proper extracition.

Just like with everything else, taking the time to test theory and dogma is much more difficult and time consuming than defending them.

ps - This is obviously a hobby horse of mine. Pardon the pedantry. I'll go creak off into my cave again. Cheers.

[Sarion]

Hi bruceb,

I agree with you that there is a trade off between tamping harder and grinding more finely, which may give a better result when tamping less than 30 lbs. And that only testing will give us an answer to that.

But while you say that for Schomer, it didn't have anything to do with hydrodynamics (true or not), that really doesn't matter. The coffee doesn't know why its being tamped, and the water doesn't know why there is a certain resistance in the coffee. The water still flows faster in area of less resistance, giving the described results.

Sorry for using the word 'believe'. It has nothing to do with scepsis or dogma or religion. I don't want to get into an ontological discussion. Please feel free to substitute 'think' or 'suppose' or whatever is non-offensive to you.

Regards,

Berend