Roasting Newbie (AKA Santa brought an Alpenrost)

[gruff]

Having been away over Christmas, I have just had a chance to play with the Alpenrost that Santa gave me
I was roasting an Espresso blend that was supplied with the machine. Initially I left the setting on default (setting 8 out of a possible 15) to see what happened. About 8 mins into the roast I started to hear various "spitting" noises over and above the sound of the drum and the fan. Fairly indistinct and seemed to go on for a few minutes. I'm assuming this was the first crack. After about 17 minutes there was a series of definite cracks (? second crack). At about 18 mins the roaster went into the cooling cycle. The beans came out quite pale, though some were darker than others.
I repeated the whole process with another batch on setting 11. What I am taking to be the second crack started a bit earlier, and went on a bit longer (possibly 15 or so separate "cracks"). The beans came out noticeably darker, though some are still paler than others.
I have a couple of questions and would value any pointers! Do the different settings on the Alpenrost relate to the temperature, or hte time of the roast? Do the varying bean colours mean the beans are under roasted, or is this to be expected when roasting blended beans?
Thanks in advance
Gruff

[Sunnyfield]

I would assume the cracks you heard were indeed first and second crack. Normally second crack doesn't take much longer than 1 minute with me, but since you were roasting a blend, I suspect the different type of beans had their second crack at different times.

I do not have an Alpenrost, but based on my experience with the IMEX I find it quite difficult to roast a blend evenly. Espresso Vivace's Dolce blend for example always turns out quite uneven (very dark and very pale beans). My single-origin roasts are reasonably even. I suggest you experiment with roasting one type of bean first and leave the blend for later. Btw, where did you get this blend from?

Regarding the settings... I do not know for sure, but I would expect it just shortens or lengtens the roast. I don't think there is a temperature setting or roast-profile. This is just an ASSUMPTION!

[gruff]

Hi Sunny,
Thanks for the reply. The blend was from Another Coffee. (Maybe Carolyn will be along to give me hints on roasting it.)
After roasting it I couldn't resist pulling a few shots. The first one produced great crema, but came through in about 15 secs. After adjusting the grind, I pulled another shot which again looked great and tasted very good (even though the beans had only had a couple of hours to rest). I'm not good at describing the flavour, but it certainly seemed OK
Gruff

[michel]

Glad to read the taste is good.

Can you describe your roasting-ritual (procedure) on the Alpenrost to me..? I'm very curious as I've never seen one (not to mention used one) in real!

Thanks,
Michel

[gruff]

Michel,
Bearing in mind I have only done 2 roasts! It is very straightforward. Weigh out 225g of green beans and put them into the drum. Select which program you want. They are numbered 1-15 from lightest roast to darkest. Press the start button. Wait....Wait.....The machine automatically roasts them, then goes into a cooling cycle, then dumps the roasted beans into a hopper. Clean machine. I think it will be very easy once I have worked out what number to select for which beans! (Trial and error). To be fair it is possible to interrupt yhe roasting early by pressing the cooling button. I haven't figured out yet if the darker roast is achieved by a higher temperature or a longer time. I had assumed that it would be based on time since that is much easier to control, but the two roasts I did seemed to be the same time, but I could be wrong about that!
Gruff

[michel]

I had assumed that it would be based on time since that is much easier to control, but the two roasts I did seemed to be the same time, but I could be wrong about that!
Gruff

If the second roast was done right after the first I can imagine that the Alp was still 'pre-heated' somehow...
I think your assumption that time is the issue which makes a roast darker or lighter, is right. But 'don't shoot the piano-player'

Your ritual seems quite easy (maybe this will be different in a few weeks, maybe not...) and I would like to thank you for describing it... Especially the amount of 225 grams of beans looks very appealing to me (I can only roast 80 grams in my Hearthware roaster). And also the pre-set roasting settings are appealing... (on my Hearthware -who has 'pre-set-roasts' too- they don't work perfect, so I don't use them anymore. I have look at the beans, smell them and hear the cracks in stead... Hope your Alp makes roasting easier on you...).
Michel

[phil]

Aha! A little bird told me you were getting a roaster for Christmas! Congratulations!

An uneven-appearing roast is characteristic of a pre-blend. What bothers me hugely though is 1st crack at 8 minutes and 2nd at 17 minutes. That is not what you should expect. Also if the cracks at 17 minutes were quite pronounced, I don't think that's 2nd crack either.

1st crack is a quite pronounced snapping noise, a bit like a pencil snapping. It corresponds to the same sort of physical event as when corn pops in a popper (basically a steam explosion). Second crack is a very different sound. a bit like an electric crackling. Not an explosive sound at all. It results from pyrolysis causing the rupture of the cell walls in the bean. The sounds vary a little from bean to bean, but once you've heard 1st and second cracks there's absolutely no confusing them.

Typically you might expect 1st crack to occur between 195 - 210 deg C or thereabouts. There is a variation according to the beans being roasted, and also the roast profile. Second crack occurs around 225 - 230 deg C (ish, same caveats). That said, I have one bean that does 1st at 210 and 2nd nearer 240 so it does vary.

However the point of the above is to illustrate how close in temperature 1st and 2nd crack are relative to ambient temperature. You would not expect them to occur so widely separated in time. Normally you'd expect the start of 1st to the establishment of 2nd to occur within 2.5 to 4 minutes at the most.

Roasting a pre-blend makes this all a little harder, as the beans in the blend will typically do their things at slightly different stages into the roast.

Anyway, welcome to the rewarding and frustrating world of home roasting. Once you've got the hang of it you'll never willingly buy pre-roasted again. Not even Eeffoc's or Carolyn's. Trust me on this!

All the best

Phil

[alans]

Gruff, great to have another Alper on the list

I've had an Alp for a year and a half now and after some early confusion I now feel fairly confident. What you were hearing at 8 mins isn't first crack, I'd say it's more likely to be general temperature change noises, in general if it's before 13mins it's defiantly not a crack. I found it helps to think of them as "first snap" and "second crackle". With a blend you will always get more inconsistent roasts, but you may find as you roast more you see this as an advantage rather than a disadvantage. Setting definatly relate to time, each setting is approximatly 15 seconds longer than the last. The newer Alp's such as mine and yours try to adjust for ambient temp but not sure if that's time or temp.

Here's an overview of my early learning curve:

New Alp
Very inconsistent, settings don’t really seem to relate to the output I’m getting.

1 Week: Scales
1g sensitive digital scales showed me that my cheap cooking scales are ±10%. No wonder I couldn’t get consistent results!

3 Weeks: Prima
Bought a Prima popper to get a better "look" at the roasting process. Now that I could see the colour progression I could better understand exactly what first and second cracks are and how the progression smelled.

20 Weeks: Settings
I found that if I set the Alp to 15 then stopped the roast manually I’d end up with better and more dependable results. Too may factors can effect the Alp's timings, clenliness of roaster, voltage, ext temp, etc.

1 Year: Scales Broke
When my scales broke after about a year I was ready to rush out for some new ones but I thought I’d see how my earlier experiences and no longer depending on the Alp’s timer changed matters. I found since I was controlling when the roast stopped I could under load the Alp and still get good results simply by stopping the roast earlier and when I over loaded up to about 250g I found the added complexity that the inconsistency gave was great!
Around this time I also started paying a lot more attention to the smells coming from the roaster and now roast as much by smell as sound.

So my advice is:
Get some good scales if you don’t have them already.
Set the Alp to 15 and let a roast go until you see way too much smoke coming out (20mins), listen, smell and take notes along the way. When you read back over the notes you’ll probably see you have numerous early times for and second cracks starting, but hopefully you’ll be able to work out some definite ideas of what is and isn’t 1st and 2nd.
Get a Prima popper if you see one going cheap enough in the IoM, much easier for roasting leftovers as well as a fun roaster for helping you learn.

Anyway I'm still learning but am now mostly happy with the results

[gruff]

Alan and Phil
Thanks for the replies. I can see that this is going to be quite an interesting learning experience (though why santa didn't bring any scales as well I just don't know. He must have known I would need them! )
The good news is that even my amateur first attempts have produced coffee at least as good as any preroasted, and better than most I have had delivered. So looking forward to the challenge)
Thanks for the info about first and second cracks. I think I'll try roasting some single-origin beans till I get the hang a bit more
Gruff

[Steve]

Hi Gruff

I used to have a alpenrost too, infact we had it as a show piece in the shop just to grab peoples attention, so heres the few point I picked up from my ownership

KEEP IT CLEAN Sarah didnt see the point in cleanin the roaster each time and thought at the end of the day would be ok. NO NO NO KEEP it clean. As Alan said it varies the results.

Roast manually as Alan said. Get used to it being interactive, best results are when you put the most effort in .

Room temp is very important, it varies results.

DONT DROP IT we did and it never worked again.

And hope that the supplier does the Customer service and not the importer. The distributor is shall we say "unhelpful"

[gruff]

Hi Eeffoc,

Thanks for the tips. I'll have to get my marigolds on! As far as customer service goes, the first machine I received was broken (on of the rollers was out of line meaning the drum wouldn't turn properly). It was replaced immediately by the supplier. In fact I've still got the other one here waiting to be collected. Can't grumble so far about customer service!

[michel]

Gruff,
As I don't know how to make a link to a specific post on alt.coffee, I'll post the whole post (name: what roaster to buy), and as you can see, he has some tips on the alp too... Nice guy btw (maybe we should invite him to TMC..?):

--------------------------------------------------------------
Well, not one to keep anything a secret, here are my two bits on
roasters. Much of what I have to say will either be redundant or
contradict what has been said here so far.

I lust after a big sample roaster, a Probat, Diedrich, etc. I could
easily sell 25 lbs of fresh roast beans per week. I have not found a
machine that I could afford, so this is just dream stuff.

The Hotpop looks lovely, but doesn't have a big enough capacity for the
price, AFAIAC.

I just did my 200th roast using a stock Hearthware Precision roaster.
Its bean capacity is too small for my taste and I don't like the noise
(sounds like a loud vacuum cleaner) but it has never failed me, two of
my friends own the same machine and are happy with theirs, and the roast
is reliable. I like being able to watch the beans while they are
roasting and have hundreds of pictures of roasts at 1, 4, 5, 6, 7
minutes. The results are excellent and are virtually independent of
ambient temperature and quantity of beans up to roasting capacity. For
most beans a very dark French roast takes 7'30'' and I usually don't go
anywhere near that far. It takes some time until you can recognise first
and second crack, but they are there and for most beans are discernable.
Second crack usually occurrs, depending on the bean, of course, at 6-7
minutes, whereby things happen very quickly after that (1 min. later you
may have charcoal). Real big beans are a problem as they are with all
fluid-bed roasters. You can only do about 40 g of Maragogype or they
won't be lifted adequately by the airstream and some will burn while
others stay green.

All-in-all I am happy with this roaster, which I bought from Ivo and
which (perhaps significantly) is a 240V model. I have read many horror
stories about these roasters not lasting for more than a few roasts, but
I can only say that after 200 roasts I have had no problems at all with
it. YMMV, obviously. This last sentence is true for almost anything, of
course. It is very important to keep it clean. Especially the chaff
collector on top should be cleaned after every roast and washed in
detergent after every 3 roasts. I always let mine cool for half an hour
at least before doing another roast. This probably has a lot to do with
length of useable life. It also severly limits the amount of beans you
can roast in an afternoon.

My main roaster is an Alp, which I snagged on eBay, brand new for $100,
complete with a few kilos of beans. Some poor guy bought it and died
before he ever got a chance to use it (probably died of stale coffee)
and his widow had someone sell it on eBay. I have owned it for 18 months
and have done 120 roasts in it so far.

The Alp deserves a few paragraphs. For my use it is almost perfect. It
is VERY touchy about two parameters: 1) quantity of beans, and 2)
ambient temperature/relative humidity. As has been noted here it does
not do a dark roast on it's own. It won't usually go past full-city
roast unless you coerce it, which is not difficult. I can turn beans to
charcoal if I want to (which I don't) and there is no real trick to it.
You just set the roast setting to maximum (15) and use 180 g of beans
instead of 230 g. The darkness the Alp will roast to is very easily
adjusted by adjusting the amount of beans to the gram. I use an old
analytical balance, but any good digital balance with an accuracy of 1 g
will do fine. The less beans the darker the roast.

As to ambient temperature, at 30°C in the summer I can do 220 g as dark
as I like. At 16°C in the winter I can only do 200 g or less. Relative
humidity also has an effect; the higher the humidity the smaller the
mass of beans you can roast. It goes without saying that you need to
keep an accurate roast log with this roaster. Every parameter you can
think of should be noted and the results carefully studied so you can
repeat roasts.

Very small beans, peaberries, etc. will stick in the drum and burn and
smoke, but I have not noticed that such a roast tastes smoky or had any
other problems with it. I just knock the burnt beans out with a wooden
spoon and go on. I let the Alp cool down an hour before using again. I
worry about the plastic housing near the fan. It is becoming slightly
deformed and discolored. This roaster seems quite well designed and well
made, but I am put off by the amount of plastic material in the hot-air
path. The fan is also plastic. I have never taken the machine apart, but
probably will have to do so as I cannot get the fan shrouding clean
anymore and I am afraid the dust could catch fire. I have seen an Alp
that caught fire because of this and it was just so much rubbish.

After 3 or 4 roasts it is important to wash the chaff tray, vent screen
and outlet hood and the roast-bean hopper. After 5 0r 6 roasts the
reflecting inner liner of the door should be cleaned and polished. By
carefuly removing 2 self-tapping screws it can be removed and washed. I
do mine in the dishwasher. Of course, after every roast the chaff needs
to be removed from the tray and the roasting chamber, the fan and the
outlet hood.

I roast under a 1/2hp vent hood in the kitchen and it doesn't completely
get rid of the smoke problem, but my wife enjoys the smell, so what can
I say? If this is a problem for someone it sounds like the Ben and Jerry
(ummmm Zach, something) roaster might be a better solution. Both of my
roasters make LOTS of smoke. Also, a small vacuum cleaner is an absolute
necessity, especially with the Alp as you need to removed any chaff that
has gotten stuck in or around the heating element.

I love improving on espresso shots, enjoy the complements I get on milk
espresso drinks and get a kick out the look on people's faces when they
see my big commercial espresso machines, but the biggest joy I get out
of coffee is roasting. A well-roasted, carefully blended coffee has
become my own personal equivalent to the hígher-deity espresso shot so
many dream of.

Best wishes,

Bruce "ol' smokey joe" B
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[gruff]

Thanks for that Michel. Very interesting. Funnily enough I was thinking about reducing the amount of beans earlier today. I was roasting some Kenyan Blue Mountain and using Alan's method of setting it to maximum and waiting for the smoke. I eventually stopped the roast at 19 mins 30secs, which is only about 30 secs short of the maximum roast time. The beans have come out at what I would describe as medium roast. Mind you it is pretty cold and wet here at the moment! May be a different story in summer!

[Steve]

My big 5 kg ambex really changes with the weather. If its cold or been a frost it takes an age for first crack, so I spose its the same on smaller ones too

[gruff]

In view of the helpful replies I had, I thought I would give you an update on my experiences with the Alp.

As per Alan's suggestion I now have an accurate set of scales which has made things a lot easier. I roast 1-2 times a week, and have only used a single origin bean (Kenyan Blue Mountain) until I get the hang of things a bit more. I have reduced the quantity of beans to 200g, and now set the Alp to maximum. I then stop the roast usually dependant on the amount of smoke produced.

1st crack is almost always between 14m 30s and 15mins. Second crack usually 3-3 1/2 mins later. Usually roast for 19 or so minutes in total. The results are now quite predictable, and I am getting better at gauging how dark the roast is depending on the smoke.... (wife complaining mildly = medium roast. Wife getting violent= dark roast )

As has been mentioned the ambient temp seems to be key to the whole thing, and I guess I may have to expect shorter roasts when winter ends (i.e July on the IoM!)

I would be interested to hear peoples views on blending. Is it better done before roasting, or is it better to roast single origin beans and blend after?

Cheers
Gruff