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bruceb
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Post subject:
 Posted: Jan 23, 2009 - 09:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2004
Posts: 5048
Location: Northern Hesse, Germany
Status: Offline
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Once again I would plead for a bit of home science, or not really science at all, but rather simple testing. Otherwise we will need to create a new group called "Coffee Religion."
Nothing is simpler and of less value than creating dogma based on hypothetical explanations. In our case here it is just as easy to do some simple testing and come to "personally objective" results.
Just roast some beans, put part of them in a bag with valve, put part of them in a bag without a valve and part of them in the hopper. Use them alternately and see if you can tell a difference. It would be best to "neutralise" the test so it was blind, but that is probably too difficult. Be honest with yourself because it is only yourself you are fooling. If you can reliably taste a difference pat yourself on your back and store the beans the way you found best. If you can't taste a difference then you know it doesn't matter. Forget dogma.
That said, I have done the above and I'm with Zix. I roast 2 or 3 batches of 230g each in the HotTop, dump them in the hopper, let them degas for a day and then use them up within 7 days. I tried bags, I tried vacuum containers, I tried jars, I tried weighing the beans and putting 18g in the hopper, grinding, cleaning, etc. I have never been able to detect a difference between these various ways of treating freshly roasted beans.
The degassing time varies from one bean to another, but generally I find that within 18-24 hours after roasting most beans are usable for espresso. There are exceptions, of course.
Finally, as was said above, there are very good reasons for commercial roasters to use valve bags. They do not apply to home roasters or artisan roasters for a number of reasons. |
_________________
Three Francesconi (CMA) espresso machines - Rossi, San Marco, LaCimbali, Faema and 2 Mazzer Major grinders- CoffeeTech Maggionlino, Hottop, Alpenröst and HW Precision roasters.
This week I are pleased with my new grinder and LM baskets. 
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JulieJayne
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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 05:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 04, 2005
Posts: 371
Location: Dordrecht, Nederland
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ubo wrote:
Will need to agree to differ on pack failure rates.
OK
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I have trialled oil film valve systems (using ground coffee,
sorry I was thinking coffee beans, ground is a whole other ball game!
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To say that valves don’t add anything to the consumer except cost I find baffling. If you are packing fresh coffee on mechanised lines then they are a must to avoid pack failure, why else would they be in use? Are you seriously suggesting that all those roasters out there who have collectively invested $0,000,000’s in valve applicators and valves shouldn’t have?
Actually Yes! The $0,000,000’s would IMHO have been far better invested in roasting in smaller quantities, better transport systems, etc so that they could deliver at least "week fresh" coffee. The milk industry can deliver fresh products. So can the bakery industry. So can the "real ale" industry. Why do we not demand the same quality in coffee? |
_________________
Espresso: BFC TCI Lira.
Grinders: Eureka Mignon (2), Mahlkonig Guatemala,
Roaster: Gene Cafe.
Retired... Cimbali Junior, Cimbali Alinox.
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 10:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 08, 2005
Posts: 71
Location: UK
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A very good point and one I wholly endorse, (the roasting company i work for majors on sending out fresh coffee and trying to get customers to use it fresh/order small and regularly). However, at the risk of flogging the horse, that still leaves you with ballooning bags or the old '2-way valve' venting to atmosphere do deliver fresh coffee.
Actually, given that the supply chain infrastructure already exists for the most part, I think the $$$$'s would be better spent on consumer education as the value of fresh coffee, but that's a whole other challenge  . |
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triptogenetica
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Posted: Jan 26, 2009 - 08:37 AM
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Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 395
Location: Oxford, UK
Status: Offline
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ah, real ale as an example! Hadn't thought of that one - yet it's quite a good reference - they do get some amazing ales to the pub, fresh, all year round.
But they have to, since the customer demands it. With coffee, a vac-packed or valve bag is seen as sophisticated; who cares where, or when, it was ground? |
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Bezzera BZ35 (ex Gaggia Carezza)
Grinders - Iberital MC2, Bezzera BB105, Hario Skerton
Aeropress, Cona C, Hario MCA-5 and TCA-5 vacpots
Beans - Behmor homeroast
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zix
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Posted: Jan 26, 2009 - 09:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 1312
Location: Partille/Göteborg, Sweden
Status: Offline
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Quote:
The milk industry can deliver fresh products. So can the bakery industry. So can the "real ale" industry. Why do we not demand the same quality in coffee?
Yes, this is another aspect of the cause for micro roasters. Good argument, JJ! No need for techno bags if the coffee is freshly roasted...
On a parallell side-track, I had the pleasure of visiting Marseille for weekend about year or so ago. My first visit to France, and I think what most surprised me was the abundance of small boulangeries and charcuteries spread out through the central parts of the city.
Those shops are all but gone in Sweden. Though of course you will find the occasional bakers' shop, even they are usually franchises nowadays, with larger, more industrial bakeries doing the actual baking.
Another surprise was the fantastic food. I know of the french kitchen of course (who doesn't?), but still, I couldn't help being constantly surprised by the high quality and great taste of every single meal - no, every single component of every single meal we ate in every single restaurant we visited there.
It is plain to see, afterwards, that these things are connected. They have good food infrastructure and a good local food culture, their food doesn't travel over half the world before it gets to their plates, and it is taken care of by people who know how to handle food, and the people who handle food seem to appreciate when it tastes good too. Even if it happens to be pizza, caesar-salad or entrecôte with pommes fritées, the owner takes pride in what he serves, and rightly so.
Personally, I find the food in Sweden dull and tasteless in comparison, though of course there are exceptions to the rule. Yes, luxurious and exotic food is all the rage here right now - but that is not what southern France is about.
Moi même, I find it easy to draw the parallell from Marseillan food to coffee and micro roasting, even home roasting, and how much the mere joy of, and experience in, fresh coffee could mean for coffee culture as a whole, but frankly I don't think I could pull it off in writing. JJ, I am sure you could. |
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‹• Bezzera B3000AL • Cona C size • Aeropress • Vev moka • Bialetti Brikka • Cezve • Handpresso Wild • Bacchi Espresso • Arrarex Caravel •
• Anfim KS Self • broken Cimbali Max • OE Pharos •
• oven • hot air gun • Behmor •›
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JulieJayne
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 - 05:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 04, 2005
Posts: 371
Location: Dordrecht, Nederland
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ubo wrote:
Actually, given that the supply chain infrastructure already exists for the most part, I think the $$$$'s would be better spent on consumer education as the value of fresh coffee, but that's a whole other challenge .
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_________________
Espresso: BFC TCI Lira.
Grinders: Eureka Mignon (2), Mahlkonig Guatemala,
Roaster: Gene Cafe.
Retired... Cimbali Junior, Cimbali Alinox.
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 - 07:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 08, 2005
Posts: 71
Location: UK
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For the out of home market most of our goods are dispatched for next day Mon-Fri via TNT if you order before 1530. Delivering fresh coffee is then just a matter (not a small matter I agree) of managing customer inventory to your roasting.
In the grocery on-the-shelf channel, I would agree that outside of direct sales (e.g. via internet) this is a real challenge. |
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JulieJayne
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Posted: Jan 29, 2009 - 10:23 AM
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Joined: Oct 04, 2005
Posts: 371
Location: Dordrecht, Nederland
Status: Offline
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| Postage for me always ends up being the problem. I don't know what the postage rates in the UK are now, but in Holland the basic for a package is €6.50 250gram of coffee costs average €4 - €6 Therefore the postage is a major factor. If the customer orders enough to make the postage worthwhile, then they have too much for the coffee to remain fresh! |
_________________
Espresso: BFC TCI Lira.
Grinders: Eureka Mignon (2), Mahlkonig Guatemala,
Roaster: Gene Cafe.
Retired... Cimbali Junior, Cimbali Alinox.
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